Intelligent Design, Naturalistic Evolution, and Philosophical Underpinnings

It often seems to me that scientists lose track of the fact that their research methods and interpretation of results are based on philosophical assumptions.  Now, to be fair, sometimes I have seen this awareness, but oftentimes it is absent.

There is no such thing as philosophy-free science; there is only science whose philosophical baggage is taken on board without examination.Daniel Dennett, Darwin’s Dangerous Idea, 1995.

The notion of evolution can be seen as a psychological or hypothetical construct.  It’s a mental representation that allows for the description of observed information.  In that sense, it can never ‘exist,’ because it is simply a mental heuristic to explain things.  We have to be careful to separate observation from constructs.  For example, a person who believes solely in naturalistic evolution, has a mental representation of how distinct observations are tied together (i.e., different types of fossils in different strata layers, and certain observations from biology).

So what is the difference in psychological constructs between someone who ascribes to ID theory versus naturalistic evolution.  If you use a purely ID based construct without theological elements, they may differ only in the assumption of design characteristics versus happenstance development of features and characteristics.  An ID construct may say nothing more than, an intelligence was involved somewhere in the process and therefore, the characteristics we see have a designated or designed purpose.  So the assumption of characteristics exhibited by life forms will be seen as serving some purpose (as if they have been created by an engineer).

With purely naturalistic evolution, the psychological construct leads to different conclusions, predictions, and a focus of research.  Purpose may be ascribed to mate selection, or selective advantage, or the purpose may be seen as a non-functional hold-over from a previous stage of the evolutionary process.  A person using an ID construct would not necessarily deny many of these things, but would also not make the assumption that all characteristics confer a survival advantage, increase mating fitness, or are ‘hold-overs.’

I have a construct for evaluating science based on its practical and real-world implications.  So far, in my opinion, the naturalistic evolutionary schema has been applied inappropriately to a number of basic biological phenomena.  Purporting evolution to mere natural selection (i.e., bacterial resistance).  Up until recently, people using naturalistic evolutionary constructs have managed to delay advancement in genetics that may have led to cures of important diseases or improved treatments.  As an example, nearly all organs that were previously viewed as ‘vestigial’ or evolutionary ‘hold-overs,’ have been discovered to have important physiological purposes (e.g., appendix, junk DNA, or tonsils).

In my opinion, the design assumption is superior in its possibility for producing long-term real-world benefits to society.  Start with the assumption of design and purpose and think about biology as discovering that purpose.

Now, each construct has societal and personal implications with regard to theology.  Neither construct would speak directly to that issue, but they may be extended with additional constructs.  A person holding a naturalistic evolutionary construct may also come to the conclusion that God exists.  A person holding an ID construct may not believe in God, only that ’something’ was responsible for the design.  It turns out that on a deep level people will be motivated to fill in those blank spots with faith (either faith in God or faith in the non-existence of God).  It just turns out that most who ascribe to purely naturalistic philosophies also tend to extend their constructs to include a construct for the non-existent of God and the reverse for the ID crowd.  Or sometimes, it can work in the opposite direction, the assumption of God leads to the construct of ID, or the assumption of no God leads to philosophical naturalism.  So, while neither theory speaks directly to theology, it is intimately entwined with both theories at their philosophical bases as an outcropping or the philosophical bases for these views is an outcropping of a more deeply held belief system (God’s existence or non-existence).

I would be interesting in hearing opinions about whether you think it would be more advantageous to use a design construct when conducting research or a naturalistic evolutionary construct.  Naturally, I believe that the design construct is a superior approach in the long term for providing demonstrable benefit to society.

24 Responses

  1. It would be advantageous to use a naturalistic evolutionary construct when performing research because it is the construct that is validated by the evidence.

    Not all evaluations of the same evidence are equally valid.

    Time for a thought experiment!

    I take you into a closed room. There is a table in the center. On the table is a large box with a button on the side and a light-bulb on the top. I challenge you to determine how to make the light-bulb work.

    After some experimentation, you will eventually press the button on the side of the box – perhaps by accident. When you do this, the light turns on. When you press the button again, the light goes off. The pattern of behavior is repeated every time you press the button.

    The mode of thought in evolution goes like this:
    You conclude from this that there is a mechanism inside the box that connects the button to the light, and that pressing the button is directly influences the state of the light bulb.

    The mode of thought in intelligent deisign goes like this:
    You conclude that when I brought you into the room, I had a small wireless device in my pocket that could activate or deactivate the light. Every time you pressed the button, I was secretly clicking on the device and creating the illusion that the button was making the light go on and off.

    These two modes of thought are clearly not equally valid. Even on the off chance that the second scenario turns out to be right and I did have such a device hidden in my pocket, it would still be irrational to prefer such an explanation over the simpler and more obvious conclusion that the button was connected to the light bulb in some way, without a mediator interfering in the proccess.

    What you’re arguing about ID and evolution fits this thought experiment pretty well. The evolutionary explanation is plausible.

    Start with reproduction with variation where not all the creatures born will survive long enough to reproduce. The ones who variate in favor of their environment become more populous. The ones who variate the wrong way do not. Design is enforced on the population not from the interference of a divine archietect but instead from the constraints of the natural environment.

    The ID line of reasoning is very different.

    We think some intelligent entity (we don’t know who the entity is or what it is like) decided (for some reason we do not know) to design an organic structure X (we don’t know how the entity performs the design) and give it to creature Y (we don’t know why creature Y was selected, or why it was selected at that time) using some kind of process (we don’t know what that process is). It is implicit to our studies that we cannot make predictions about what the designer will design, or why, or how, or when.

    These two lines of reasoning may look at the same evidence, but they are not equal. The first one is plausible reasoning that is borne out by existing evidence and can produce falsifying predictions. The second one is a crock of pseudoscience.

  2. I was asking for concrete implications not abstract thought experiments. I understand you’re trying to illustrate a point with your thought experiment, but it’s irrelevant. It only demonstrates how ’superstitious’ behavior can develop.

    Your two lines of reasoning do not apply to an evolutionary vs. ID schema.

    This part of the statement applies equally to both:

    Start with reproduction with variation where not all the creatures born will survive long enough to reproduce. The ones who variate in favor of their environment become more populous. The ones who variate the wrong way do not.

    That’s simple natural selection. Your second point is completely flawed because it ignores the problem I point out with your premise. You go to the abstract way of representing the problem based on a false premise.

    A non-design schema opens up scientists to ‘looking for happenstance’ where none exists. In other words, they assume that because they assume many aspects of biological creatures may be useless, whereas a design schema assumes that there will be use and function. I’ve already pointed out how I believe that the assumption of non-design has led to real-world detriments to science and delayed benefits to society.

    What has naturalistic evolution contributed to society in terms of real-world benefits?

  3. What has naturalistic evolution contributed to society in terms of real-world benefits?

    Gah?!?!?!?!

    No, I’ll repeat that again: Gah?!?!?!

    First off, science is the pursuit of truth. Even if evolution contributed nothing, it would still be the valid unifying theory of biology because of all the evdience that supports it. Truth is an end in itself. Evolution doesn’t have to be useful in order to be true.

    However, despite the fact that evolution doesn’t have to be useful, naturalistic evolution has provided us with useful benefits.

    Ironically, some of the greatest applications of naturalistic evolution have nothing to do with biology. In computing, we have genetic algorithms that can breed and evolve to find the optimum weighting for the heuristics of artificial intellienge – yes, you heard me. We can use genetic algorithms to give rise to artificial intelligence. The evidence shows that evolution is the source of intelligence, not the other way ’round.

    Similar to genetic algorithms, engineers can use evolutionary principles to determine the optimal solutions to design problems that are so complex that no mental model within human capacity could ever account for all the subtlties involved. One example of this is the design of curved surfaces that need to perform complicated interactions with wind turbulence. The applications for evolutionary principles in engineering and computer science are legion.

    So there’s two areas where evolutionary design principles are useful. Remember Orgel’s Second Rule: “Evolution is smarter than you are.” Evolution can find optimal solutions to many of the design problems that are beyond the capacity of the human mind to solve.

    Now, I know the usual cdesign proponentsist objection to this. “But it requires human intelligence to make the evolutionary algorithms work in the first place!”

    I don’t actually know if you’re planning to stoop so low as that, but just in case I’d like to nip it in the bud first. If you weren’t going to go there, then you can skip this blockquoted section entirely:

    Yes, when humans use evolutionary techniques to solve a design problem that is beyond the capacity of our personal intellect, we do bring some intelligence into the evolutionary process. The form of this is that we intelligently devise some kind of metric – say, we mutate out 100 different designs for windmill blades, each curved slightly differently and set at slightly different angles. We put the blades in a wind tunnel, then measure how much each one wiggles in the turbulence. We rank the wings with the least wiggle at the top and the most wiggle at the bottom. We use artificial selection (as opposed to natural selection) to remove the bottom 75 designs from the design pool. We then take the genome of the top 25 blades (you get a set of mathematical equations describing the length, curvature, and thickness of the surfaces of the blades with all the relevant variables – each variable gets given a value, and it is that sequence of values that forms the ‘genome’ of each blade) and randomly ‘breed’ them together, mixing up their genomes an allowing for a certain tolerance of mutation on each variable within the ‘genome’ (usually engineers provide the mean and standard deviation for how frequently mutations occur, and the mean and standard deviation for how significant those mutations are) to create 75 ‘children’ each with two (or more) randomly chosen ‘parents’ from the original top 25. The new 100 blades are then manufactured, and the test is repeated with that as the new population. Repeating the process for a few hundred generations will wind up resulting in windmill blades more resistant to wind turbulence than could ever have been designed by a human intellect alone.

    Now, yes, I grant that there is much human intellect imposed on the overall process – however, the process itself can result in amazing design for the given purpose without the application of any intelligence whatsoever to the act of design itself. And in nature, the chemistry of sex and reproduction perform all of this without the need for any intervening intelligence whatsoever – the statistics of mutation are covered by simple accident and chance, and instead of the artifical selection of the intelligently-selected heuristic metric, we have the natural selection imposed by the harsh reality that surviving long enough to reproduce is not always possible.

    In essence, our intelligent efforts in using evolutionary principles to solve design problems are all geared towards simulating the mindless and unintelligent behavior of biological chemistry.

    So even if evolution had no biological applications, we can at least establish the power and usefullness of evolutionary design principles. This is a very significant way in which naturalistic evolution has contributed to society in terms of real-world benefits.

    However, such evolutionary principles do have biological applications as well. Here I am on much less solid ground – My B.Sc. was in computer science, not biology. I don’t know all the solid examples, and in that I do apologise for this particular inability.

    However, I have heard of Abigail Smith’s research – she’s a masters student of biology – into the HIV virus. She’s using evolutionary principles very much like this to try and work towards a vacciene for HIV – an application of naturalistic evolution that, if successful, would save many, many lives. I’m not sure of all the details, but I do know that Abigail is using techniques borrowed from other biological scientists that were used in the same way on different viruses in order to produce vaccinations that would otherwise have been impossible.

    Another real-world application of naturalistic evolution is in the use of DNA profiling to perform paternity tests. It’s not as big as saving lives by trying to produce a vaccine for HIV, but it’s still a real-world benefit of naturalistic evolution.

    Anyway, this post is getting to be too long, so I’ll leave off for now. Suffice to say that I’m sure that if I stopped writing for ten minutes and searched through Google I’d find even more real-world applications of naturalistic evolution. However, I have to re-iterate – even if naturalistic evolution had no real-world benefit whatsoever, that is irrelevant to whether or not it is true – and science is concerned with truth first and technological innovation second.

  4. Gah gah? ;)

    Che that’s not even similar to the supposed principles of naturalistic evolution. That’s just applying principles of microevolution and trial and error. It’s just trial and error with a few twists. And yes, the whole process is designed and contrived. Looks a whole lot more like ID to me. It’s used to solve specific problems. I’ll be awaiting the cure for HIV, but I’ll bet the methods are based on microevolution concepts. And what will you think if someone else solves the problem not based on the microevolutionary process, but rather by analyzing the design of the virus? So, it was a good try, but it falls flat.

    There are different philosophies of science. One says that the only thing that matters is the search for truth. Another says that the only thing that matters is the application. (Basic vs. applied science). The value of basic science is predicated upon available research funds and the possibility that it may eventually result in a benefit to applied science. Now, I’m all for searching for the truth, but that’s kind of hard to do if you intentionally blind yourself to other possibilities.

  5. ‘Che said, “However, I have heard of Abigail Smith’s research – she’s a masters student of biology – into the HIV virus. She’s using evolutionary principles very much like this to try and work towards a vacciene for HIV – an application of naturalistic evolution that, if successful, would save many, many lives.”

    Well, I serve a Designer, Who, if His laws are taken seriously, if we listen and learn from Him and apply what He teaches, has already come up with the way to save many many lives from the HIV virus. Let’s see…sexual purity; no sex before marriage, sex only with one’s spouse, marriage and sex within that marriage between male and female. His moral law leads logically and morally to no addiction to drugs which can be taken intravenously. Before humanity had caught on to the spread of germs and viruses via things like blood, dirty hands, and other bodily fluids the Lord set up His law to insure His people would not fall to plagues passed on in such ways…cleanliness laws.

    Amazing isn’t it?
    Kliska
    TheChristianScribbler.com

  6. Kilska: I can hear the stench of death and suffering on your breath even as you lean forward.

    You are condescending an application of science that is trying to save lives and end a form of human suffering. How dare you. Widespread use of a proven HIV vacciene could actually bring about an end to HIV – something that the doctrine of abstience has failed to do.

    Abstience will continue to fail to cure HIV. This is because the will to sexual intimacy is one of the most precious and valuable parts of the human spirit, and no amount of life-denying, death-embracing crackpot ideolological rabble-rousing is ever going to change that.

    People who choose to enjoy their sexuality rather than repress it in a fit of abject self-hatred regarding one of the greatest aspects of our human spirit should not have to die in order to satisfy your religious prudery.

    How dare you.

    I’ll get back to you, Shrink, when I’ve calmed down a little.

  7. ‘Che says,

    “I can hear the stench of death and suffering on your breath even as you lean forward.”

    It is an odd thing to “hear” a stench…though in psychology, we do have a label for that type of thing, it’s called “synesthesia.”

    “You are condescending an application of science that is trying to save lives and end a form of human suffering. How dare you. Widespread use of a proven HIV vacciene could actually bring about an end to HIV – something that the doctrine of abstience has failed to do.” says Che.

    By no means. You are employing rhetoric all throughout your post, but no logic. You are offering up a red herring here that leads people away from the point of my post; a proven answer to HIV would be, and is, abstinence. Abstinence is also highly effective to prevent pregnancy, and also most other awful STD’s. Score a point for the Designer.

    The “doctrine” of abstinence hasn’t failed, humans have failed. We all slip, and none of us are righteous, no, not one. We also bear the consequences of our slips…some of us slip sexually, some through drugs, others in anger. This doesn’t change the fact that if God’s morality is followed we would be a healthier society. Abstinence outside of marriage isn’t an easy way, but it is the best way.

    If she comes up with a vaccine, good for her. There’s nothing wrong with that, in fact, it would be a good and wonderful thing, awesome even; human life is precious, we are all in the image of God, and we are all immortal souls. But there is already a great preventative; God’s morality.

    Che laments, “Abstience will continue to fail to cure HIV. This is because the will to sexual intimacy is one of the most precious and valuable parts of the human spirit, and no amount of life-denying, death-embracing crackpot ideolological rabble-rousing is ever going to change that.”

    (As an aside, I really could use this as a wonderful example of rhetorical language with my college students while teaching my Logic course, but back to the matter at hand… ) The vaccine you mentioned is to prevent HIV, that is the same thing abstinence can lead to, if we would follow it, and guess what? It’s already available and free of charge.

    Sexuality is a gift from God Himself. There is nothing impure about sexuality, as long as it is seen within the frame of God’s knowledge of what is good and right for mankind. Life denying? Death embracing? I can see that this is coming from an emotional place inside of you, rather than a logical one. God is all about life; He gives us abundant life on earth, and also an eternal life with Him. God gave Himself, and rose to life, so that death has no more dominion over us. A good read is 1 Corinthians chapter 15.

    So, you believe humans have a spirit?

    “People who choose to enjoy their sexuality rather than repress it in a fit of abject self-hatred regarding one of the greatest aspects of our human spirit should not have to die in order to satisfy your religious prudery.” Che lectures.

    Who said anything about people not enjoying their sexuality? The fact is, the healthiest way; physically, mentally, and spiritually to enjoy one’s sexuality is in a God ordained marriage. People can enjoy their sexuality outside of that, as God has given free will, but that doesn’t make it safe, and it doesn’t make it right, morally speaking. And anyone and everyone who slips, and we all slip, can be completely forgiven if they’ve put their trust in Christ.

    But, again, this is all a red herring on your part. “Religious prudery,” no, actually it’s what we big girls like to call, “self control.”

    “How dare you.” Che demands.

    How dare I what? Give an answer to the HIV problem? An answer that does and will work if followed? Horrible, I know. How dare I share a loving God’s gift to humanity, and prove that He, The Designer, knew what He was talking about centuries ago? Awful.

    Kliska
    TheChristianScribbler.com

  8. If we view the matter from a strictly scientific position (that is, if it is possible to do so!), then the question between a naturalistic framework and design framework can be formulated in terms of which framework allows for the formulation of testable hypotheses.

    Now, it must be noted, the frameworks themselves are not tested — but that’s perfectly OK. We don’t need to test the frameworks themselves. We can evaluate the epistemic merit of the frameworks indirectly. And, what’s more, we can assign degrees of epistemic merit to each framework.

    Thus, for example, we can say that the design-theoretic framework is superior to the naturalistic framework (or vice-versa) because of such things as: the testable hypotheses it allows us to generate; the extent to which those hypotheses pass or fail at the relevant tests; the theoretical unity the framework confers on previously diverse and unrelated observations, etc.

    I’m not going to hide my biases and prejudices; you can find out what they are at my own blog with the click of a button. My point is, if you really want to argue that design theory is theologically neutral, then argue on those grounds. Or, if you want to bring theology into the ring — well, that’s fine by me, but then you forfeit the right to complain when it’s argued that teaching design theory in public schools is a violation of the separation of church and state.

    Personally, I think that it’s a big mistake to bring theology into it, because as is widely acknowledged by anyone who knows any philosophy (or theology), design theory cannot work as an argument from theologically neutral premises to theologically positive (or negative) conclusions.

  9. Carl, just because I bring things into a realm of theology at times, doesn’t mean that it can’t be taught from a theologically neutral perspective. I’m sure you’ve read other blogs by avid naturalists. They bring theology into the discussion of naturalistic evolution all the time. If you subscribe to a totally naturalistic perspective on the universe, then that necessarily entails (no designer and no God). I know you could make an argument for a totally impersonal God who has at no time interacted with the universe in any way…but what’s the point.

    Just because I extend to a theologically positive position from ID, doesn’t say anything about the theory itself. Both perspectives pure naturalism and intelligent design can have societal and practical ramifications.

  10. The discussion here turns on the relation between “the natural” and “the supernatural.” This is actually, I’ve found, a very hard distinction to make clear. It arose at a time when it was widely accepted that Newtonian physics was the definitive account of the natural world. I would find it hard to interpret Thomas or Whitehead as making such a distinction!

    In fact, if one looks at the content of “naturalism,” it wears pretty thin when taken to mean much beyond “anti-supernaturalism.”

    That said, the rest of the problematic depends on whether or not one requires a commitment to supernaturalism in order to interpret one’s religious, ethical, or aesthetic experiences. The hard-core atheist tosses out religious experience along with supernaturalism and retains the ethical and the aesthetic. The hard-core theist maintains that without supernaturalism, the ethical and the aesthetic must be tossed out as well. The rest of us are looking for a reasonable middle ground.

  11. Well, i’ve asserted before atheists avoid a logical conclusion of their ahteism–that all morality is subjective. I’ve also asserted that atheists avoid this logical conclusion, but also rarely consider morality from the perspective of their worldview. In other words, they don’t think about the implications. Most often, they attempt to follow the norms of society just as everyone else does.

    Now those who believe in God are no better on a moral basis…despite often believing themselves to be so. But this takes the discussion into the realm of theology.

    I don’t think most naturalists would agree with your definition of them being “anti-supernaturalists,” although I think that is quite often the case.

  12. For my part, I think that subjective and objective actually have quite a range of meanings, some of which are philosophically innocuous and others which cause a lot of trouble.

    The main difficulty arises when one conflates “objective” and “absolute”. To see how to separate these two, notice a feature of scientific theories. Obviously (to most of us these days) scientific theories are fallible. They could be wrong, and replaced with a better theory. So no scientific theory is absolute. But that does not diminish the objectivity of science!

    Likewise one could very well hold that moral codes are objective but fallible in the same sort of way. (I fudge here — because what will count as a reason for revising or rejecting a moral code will be different, and assessed according to different criteria, then what will count as a reason for revising or rejecting a scientific theory.)

    As for the argument that atheism leads to a subjective morality: I’ve never seen this argument presented to me in a non-question begging form. Here’s why:

    If one begins by assuming that (a) objective morality necessarily presupposes an absolute foundation, and that (b) only the existence of the classical theistic conception of God can provide such a foundation, then of course it follows that if one is an atheist, then morality must be subjective.

    The problem is that it is not incumbent on the atheist to accept either (a) or (b), and if they reject either (or both) assumptions, then they can logically deny that atheism leads to a subjective morality.

    Though this does put the burden of proof on the atheist to present alternatives to (a) and to (b), or at least reasons for rejecting (a) and (b), she is committing a logical error only if she accepts both and still denies that atheism entails a subjective morality. So unless or until she accepts (a) and (b), she’s in the clear, logically speaking.

  13. As for the argument that atheism leads to a subjective morality: I’ve never seen this argument presented to me in a non-question begging form. Here’s why:

    If one begins by assuming that (a) objective morality necessarily presupposes an absolute foundation, and that (b) only the existence of the classical theistic conception of God can provide such a foundation, then of course it follows that if one is an atheist, then morality must be subjective.

    This is one of those discussions that quickly can start to balloon ad infinitum. I think that if you take a purely naturalistic view of things you will presuppose determinism. If you presuppose determism, then notions of morality, belief or disbelief in God, take a very different turn. You can’t really have free will in a purely time-bound deterministic system. So if that’s a starting point, the notions of ‘objective’ and ’subjective’ are irrelevant. The way that someone will view things would be determined by a determined outcome of their cognitive system, with no room for an alternative outcome.

    I have yet to see an argument for objective morality on the basis that rejects (a) and (b) as you outline them. I’ve talked to other atheists that have argued that such supposed objective systems have been developed by philosophers; however, they don’t really pass muster in my opinion. Your use of the term absolute probably fits better with what I mean to say.

    Science at its best is only a tool for hopefully increasing objectivity. On average, it becomes a tool for advancing subtle and often unconsciously biased positions. At it’s worst, it becomes akin to religious dogmatism. In the hard sciences such as chemistry and physics, this is often less of a problem. I didn’t include biology there as a hard science, because it has become so infused with bias based on naturalistic evolutionary ideas and the worldviews of the researchers. That’s the extrapolation factor. Other ’sciences’ such as psychology, sociology, archeology, and other soft sciences are so prone to biased extrapolation and bias throughout the entire research process to render a fair majority of the research useless.

    Now considering applied science, I believe that ID theory has a distinctive advantage over evolutionary theory. In other words, if you study a biological system or process with the assumption that it was intelligently designed you are more likely to avoid erroneous extrapolations (for example the previous assumptions of vestigial organs in humans and junk DNA).

    I’ve posed a question a number of times to naturalistic evolutionists, and I have yet to get a good answer. This goes to the issue of what it can demonstrate in terms of applied scientific value.

    What has naturalistic evolution contributed to society in terms of real-world benefits?

  14. You’re right that these sorts of discussions can careen out of control quite rapidly, and I don’t wish to take over your blog — I have one of my own now!

    Let it suffice to say, for now, that your point above rests on two further assumptions that I’d be willing to contest: (1) that naturalism entails determinism; (2) that compatibilism (between causal determinism and free will) is unworkable. Personally, I’d rather contest (1) before (2), although I’m willing to argue both sides. In other words, I don’t think naturalism entails determinism, and I don’t think that would threaten free will even if it did.

    As for your question, “What has naturalistic evolution contributed to society in terms of real-world benefits?”, the problem here — as you’re no doubt well aware — is that the criteria according to which one assesses “real-world benefits” are themselves not independent of world-view.

    For example: as a naturalist (of some sort), I consider it a benefit that evolutionary theory has given us a transformed sense of how deeply we human beings belong to the natural world, that there are chimpanzees and dragonflies in our extended family, and that our destruction of the natural world will have massive ramifications for ourselves as natural beings. (I am not quite a “biocentrist,” but I’m close — these days my views are closest to those of Hans Jonas.)

    It seems clear to me that someone who thinks that human beings share some basic properties with angels or with God, or that there is something about human beings which cannot be specified in naturalistic terms, will not regard this as a “real-world benefit..”

  15. I’d be interested in your constesting either (1) or (2).

    You’re argument on the real-world benefits takes things into the realm of the sociological and psychological. This is the perspective that is eschewed by many atheists and is used as an argument against intelligent design. In other words they often assert ID is a political or theological movement. I’d still be interested in a non-political, non-psychological, and non-sociological explanation of the real world benefits that have been generated by naturalistic evolution.

    But, you being a naturalist, I’m interest in why you care about the continuation of inferior genetic lines. Do you view people and other biological creatures as more than simple chemistry and physics? What’s your concern with preserving a certain state of chemistry and matter?

  16. If it’s all the same to you, I don’t want to take up space on your blog with my thoughts about naturalism, determinism, and free will. We can take that up via email. In any event, I’d much rather address two other lines of thought here.

    Firstly: you ask me to address “non-political, non-psychological, and non-sociological explanation of the real world benefits that have been generated by naturalistic evolution.”

    To which I’d want to respond — somewhat sarcastically — as “huh?” That is: what sort of “real world benefits” are you interested in if NOT those that are political, psychological, or sociological? What I was gesturing towards were transformations in attitude, as a result of the sort of knowledge that evolutionary theory provides, which can inform changes in public policy. (Such as animal rights or environmental protection.) How much more “real world” can you get besides changes in pubic policy and law?

    Secondly: your question about “inferior genetic lines” smells to me like a red herring. But I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you’re being sincere in your questioning. In part, I’m sure, I haven’t done anything to refine the sort of naturalism that I am (and am not) committed to. So I’ll start now.

    Like you, I’m deeply concerned with nihilism, dehumanization, and “scientism.” So my primary concern here is going to be a certain picture of human dignity and freedom, and I’m a naturalist only so far as naturalism is consistent with that basic ethical/political commitment. It might be that we disagree on how far that consistency can go. I think it goes pretty far, IF naturalism is understood in a certain way.

    To refine, provisionally: I hold that (1) mental states are irreducible to physical states and (2) mental states characterize, to some degree, at least all metazoan animals. So yes, I think that humans and cats and dogs and (sure, why not — dragonflies and earthworms too!) cannot be described exhaustively in terms of biochemistry.

    Some philosophers — Hans Jonas and Evan Thompson come to mind — have argued that mindedness reaches all the way down into the very nature of life itself. I’ll confess to have difficulty with those approach. I don’t know what the mental states of a bacterium or alga would be. But they do have a certain point which I’m reluctant to dismiss, all the same!

    Having said that, it’s one question to work out a satisfactory epistemology and metaphysics of mind and of life. It’s quite another to coordinate that with taking ANY theological stance, INCLUDING atheism. (I think of atheism as a theological stance, since it says that, given a classical theistic concept of God, there are no entities which are correctly represented by such a concept.)

    One of the things I want to AVOID is any simplistic dichotomization of the positions between theism and atheistic naturalism. For one thing, such dichotomization leads us to falsify the historical trajectory whereby we arrived at our present set of intellectual/ethical/political options. For another, such dichotomization leads us to ignore alternatives that might very well be right in our midst — options which I’m interested in exploring.

  17. To which I’d want to respond — somewhat sarcastically — as “huh?” That is: what sort of “real world benefits” are you interested in if NOT those that are political, psychological, or sociological? What I was gesturing towards were transformations in attitude, as a result of the sort of knowledge that evolutionary theory provides, which can inform changes in public policy. (Such as animal rights or environmental protection.) How much more “real world” can you get besides changes in pubic policy and law?

    I’ll tell you why I frame it that way. The things you mention relate to a psychological attitude and socio-political results. You can get that from any number of worldviews. If naturalistic evolution is more than a worldview, there would be medical, technological, or health benefits that result from the research. If those things are not there, it is useful only inasmuch as it is a worldview.

    Secondly: your question about “inferior genetic lines” smells to me like a red herring. But I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you’re being sincere in your questioning. In part, I’m sure, I haven’t done anything to refine the sort of naturalism that I am (and am not) committed to. So I’ll start now.

    Like you, I’m deeply concerned with nihilism, dehumanization, and “scientism.” So my primary concern here is going to be a certain picture of human dignity and freedom, and I’m a naturalist only so far as naturalism is consistent with that basic ethical/political commitment. It might be that we disagree on how far that consistency can go. I think it goes pretty far, IF naturalism is understood in a certain way.

    I was being sincere with my question. You choose to view biological organisms as more than science defines them as being (such as complex chemical and physical processes). As such, there is no moral imperative for preserving a chemical and physical state of matter. Furthermore, if what has been so good in nature is death, then why the concern about such things. It is good! The naturalistic evolutionary perspective asserts that through death comes better life.

    Having said that, it’s one question to work out a satisfactory epistemology and metaphysics of mind and of life. It’s quite another to coordinate that with taking ANY theological stance, INCLUDING atheism. (I think of atheism as a theological stance, since it says that, given a classical theistic concept of God, there are no entities which are correctly represented by such a concept.)

    I agree that atheism is a theological stance. However, there are a great many scientists out there who believe that science and critical thinking entail atheism. You seem to be advocating more of an agnostic position.

    One of the things I want to AVOID is any simplistic dichotomization of the positions between theism and atheistic naturalism. For one thing, such dichotomization leads us to falsify the historical trajectory whereby we arrived at our present set of intellectual/ethical/political options. For another, such dichotomization leads us to ignore alternatives that might very well be right in our midst — options which I’m interested in exploring.

    Whereas you assert that you wish to avoid the dichotomization between theism and atheistic naturalism, you also assert that ID has no part in science. Is this not dichotomizing? There’s a time and place for dichotomization, and a time a place to avoid such. By advocating a position per se against dichotomization, you set up a self-contradictory position, because by doing so you have set up an implicit dichotomy (e.g., “It’s never okay to dichotomize.”) A self-contradicting either/or statement.

  18. As I said before, I’m reluctant to take up too much space on your blog with my own thoughts, so do please feel free to email me if you’d like.

    Firstly, I’m not a relativist about world-views; I do think that we can give reasons for preferring one world-view over another. (I’m not a foundationalist or absolutist about such matters, but I do think reason-giving is indispensable, all the same.) Secondly, I think that even the criteria you’ve proposed as being decisive — technological or medical breakthroughs — indicates that there is a certain world-view at work here, too. For why should those criteria be the decisive ones? Why are those more important than collective attitudes that inform public policy?

    As for organisms, here I’m torn between saying too much and not saying enough. I’m tempted by a metaphysics of “emergence,” and this inclines me towards an anti-reductionist metaphysics. On this view, we can say that at the biological level of organization, there are properties that cannot be reduced to physico-chemical properties — properties such as wants, desires, needs, fears, goals, etc. That is, unless we include such properties in our descriptions of organisms, we cannot understand what an organism is.

    On the one hand, I find this view somewhat extreme, and I’m uneasy with metaphysics in general. But I also find it very interesting!

    If you want to have a better sense of where I’m coming from on this question, I recommend this article:

    http://individual.utoronto.ca/evant/MBBProblem.pdf

    it is technical at times, but if you skim through those parts, you’ll understand enough.

    As for design theory in science: well, no. Firstly, as we’ve already agreed, design theory is theologically neutral, so the debate about theism and naturalism really has nothing to do with design theory — nothing at all. So whether design theory belongs in science depends entirely on how well it is able to explain and predict phenomena. And on that score, it has not done as well as evolutionary theory has.

    Of course this does not mean that evolutionary theory in its current form is the final theory. I think that at present we badly need a revised theory of evolution — what Massimo Pigliucci calls an “extended evolutionary synthesis” that allows us to develop much further the insights that are coming out of the integration of developmental biology with evolutionary theory.

    I should also add that I think that evolutionary theory is also theologically neutral. That is, I don’t think that evolutionary theory entails atheism (contra Dawkins and Myers), and I also don’t think it entails theism. I think that evolutionary theory, just like design theory, is consistent with both atheism and theism.

  19. Ok, lets continue in email. I don’t feel like you have been ‘taking up too much space.’

    I disagree with you about evolutionary theory vs. intelligent design on some accounts. First, intelligent design theory has a few incarnations. Some of which would be consistent with naturalistic evolution except for the abiogenesis part. Second, just because there is a greater consensus among scientists about the theory of evolution vs. intelligent design, doesn’t mean that one is better than the other. Third, to my knowledge the theory of evolution has resulted in no cured diseases and no practical technological applications. So, it’s reduced to more of a sociopolitical movement in terms of any potential benefits that can be claimed for society. You’d be hard pressed to claim that it would result in superior results to other worldviews in those areas. Fourth, in my opinion, it hindered medical progress by the assertions related to junk DNA and vestigial organs.

    There are probably many who would agree with your position of consistency between evolutionary theory and either atheism or theism. But those who seem to have the most influence in the field of biology are bent on proselytizing their atheism and claiming that it is entailed by naturalistic evolutionary theory.

  20. It is important to distinguish between several versions of “intelligent design.” At a minimum, I would distinguish between “cosmic ID” (CID) and “biological ID” (BID). For CID, all you need is the fine-tuning argument. For BID, you need that, plus an argument against unguided abiogenesis.

    I would distinguish between the theory itself and the socio-political effects of the theory. The theory of evolution is evaluated on its merits as a scientific theory, and stands or falls according to those merits. You asked what the benefits of that theory have been. I responded that the benefits have been, among others, a better sense of our belongingness to the natural world. I’d give the same response for the benefits of contemporary cosmological theory.

    Earlier today, on Pharyngula, I read one of Myer’s posts on the evolution of snake fangs. Does this make an immediate contribution to human health? No, of course not. But that’s a ridiculously narrow-minded conception of value! Increasing our knowledge of the world around is — I don’t know how else to say this — is just very, very cool.

    In fact, I would say that emotions of reverence and awe are neither uncommon nor inappropriate among scientists. (They just get embarrassed about saying so.)

    With respect to

    “those who seem to have the most influence in the field of biology are bent on proselytizing their atheism and claiming that it is entailed by naturalistic evolutionary theory”

    First, it’s worth pointing out that the blogosphere itself has magnified Myers’ voice in far excess of his contributions to biology. Secondly, Dawkins is a better writer than theistic evolutionists (such as Ken Miller and Francis Collins). With the passing of Gould and Sagan, he’s probably one of the best writers among famous scientists there currently is.

    Did you happen to read the joint interview between Dawkins and Collins in Time from about two years ago?

  21. I would distinguish between the theory itself and the socio-political effects of the theory. The theory of evolution is evaluated on its merits as a scientific theory, and stands or falls according to those merits. You asked what the benefits of that theory have been. I responded that the benefits have been, among others, a better sense of our belongingness to the natural world. I’d give the same response for the benefits of contemporary cosmological theory.

    In some ways, I’m more of a pragmatist. From a pragmatic perspective, evolution is a minor and insignificant theory. It’s done very little, if anything, to benefit society. I won’t repeat some of the oft used arguments about its negative sociological effects. So, pragmatically, it is of little importance outside of the realm of worldviews. So, then that leaves us to argue which perspective provides a superior worldview. That’s all just a matter of opinion.

    I don’t think there is any other decision that can be made in life with more importance than whether to believe in a designer or a God or to be an atheist. So, it’s not just an academic or intellectual exercise, I think it’s critically important. So, on such an important issue, I’m not concerned with whether it is cool, I want to know, “Is it right and true?”

  22. Did you happen to read the joint interview between Dawkins and Collins in Time from about two years ago?

    No. Or at least, I don’t remember if I did. Did you find something of interest there?

  23. “I don’t think there is any other decision that can be made in life with more importance than whether to believe in a designer or a God or to be an atheist. So, it’s not just an academic or intellectual exercise, I think it’s critically important. So, on such an important issue, I’m not concerned with whether it is cool, I want to know, “Is it right and true?”

    That’s really the issue here: is IT(our theories and beliefs) right and true, or is IT about us being RIGHT and TRUE.

    Che said to Kliska,

    “By no means. You are employing rhetoric all throughout your post, but no logic. You are offering up a red herring here that leads people away from the point of my post; a proven answer to HIV would be, and is, abstinence. Abstinence is also highly effective to prevent pregnancy, and also most other awful STD’s. Score a point for the Designer.”

    First, Kliska, is entitled to her view on this issue, which comes from her knowledge and experience in life, just as Che is. What she said is very logical from her perspective, and Che is being illogical by not being able or willing to discern that. We all use rhetoric, it’s how we communicate our opinions on issues. We all have a position and rhetoric is a part of every human being’s bag of tricks, so let’s not be scientifically-holier-than-thou here, please. I hear quite a bit of scientific rhetoric, as well as dogma, in these comments above.

    Secondly, Che’s politically correct and indignant statement, “How dare you,” seems rather odd to me, since he speaks of life, in some kind of precious sense, while adhering to a theory which produced eugenics. I know thecountryshrink won’t go there, but I will. “Selective breeding,” or it’s euphamism now, “Genetic diversity,” was responsible for atrocities beyond imagination in the twentieth century. I might say to Che, How dare you!

    Kliska, is also right that self-control, as well as her other points, could eliminate the disease from spreading further. But science keeps alive the notion that we are enslaved to our desires, because this keeps us in a state where we can be fed unsubstantiated theories, which prove we’re not much more than advanced chimpanzees.

    Che, I wouldn’t have gone here, but you had to start proselytizing your postmodern ethics and/or morality, and I couldn’t resist!

  24. If what counts is truth — and we can certainly agree on that much — then I’m certainly willing to say that I think evolutionary theory is the closest to a true theory that we presently have.

    And I don’t think that world-view choice is a matter of ungrounded opinion, either. I don’t think that we can ever dogmatically assert that a given world-view is true, but that doesn’t mean that we’re without criteria for evaluating better and worse.

    As for the decision to be a believer (of whatever sort) vs an atheist (of whatever sort): well, OK. I don’t agree with you on that — I think there are other things that are more important — but that’s really an entirely separate issue from the question of whether evolution or design is a better scientific theory.

    In the discussion between Collins and Dawkins, I thought Dawkins came off as arrogant and uninterested in what Collins was trying to say, and Collins came off as saying something very interesting but thoroughly confused.

    Part of the problem is that Collins, Dawkins, and Miller are all trying to do philosophy without any training in it, and without thinking it worthwhile to take the time to find out what philosophers have said about, for example, the meaning of religious vs. scientific language.

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